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“ELECTION DAY WILL NOT BE ENOUGH” An Interview with Howard Zinn
By Jessica Lee and John TarletonFrom the November 17, 2008 issue | Posted in National | Email this article
The election of President-elect Barack Obama is a historic moment pinned between an energizing rhetoric and a dire reality. To help put the occasion in perspective, The Indypendent reached out to renowned U.S. historian Howard Zinn, author of A People’s History of the United States.
The Indypendent: Since its inception, the United States has experienced vast social changes that are often oversimplified in history books as the projects of politicians and the product of presidents. How does change actually occur and what can be learned from these collective moments in history?
Howard Zinn: Significant changes occur when social movements reach a critical point of power capable of moving cautious politicians beyond their tendency to keep things as they are — or when these movements, by direct action, bypass the political system and bring about change by acting directly on the obstacles to change. When the anti-slavery movement reached its height in the late 1850s and early 1860s, it pushed President Abraham Lincoln toward the Emancipation Proclamation and pushed Congress toward the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. When the labor movement became militant and called strikes all over the country in the 1880s, it won the eight-hour day directly from employers without the 
actions of government. In the 1930s, the strike and the growing labor movement pushed President Franklin D. Roosevelt into the New Deal reforms — minimum wage, Social Security, subsidized housing, etc. When black people protested and demonstrated all over the South, bringing about scenes that shocked the nation, then we got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. But before that legislation, militant black protesters desegregated lunch counters and began to change the South by direct action. The movement against the war in Vietnam reached the point where it could not be ignored, where the direct action of deserting GIs, angry veterans and draft resisters created an atmosphere in which the government could no longer count on the support of the American people — and then the government began to move gradually toward ending the war.
The Indy: Obama has inspired a “hope” and energy among millions of people that has not been seen in decades. Do you believe this grassroots activity is actually a sign of a growing social movement? Have grassroots movements centered around electoral processes resulted in large-scale change in the past?
HZ: The new energy and enthusiasm have the potential of a new movement, but if they stop on Election Day that will not be enough. Too often the diversion of energy into electoral campaigns saps the movement’s energy. This happened in 1896 when the Populist movement supported the Democratic candidate, William Jennings Bryan, and when he lost, the movement fell apart. Even if he had won, the movement would have had to sustain its momentum for a Bryan administration to bring about change.
The Indy: What will Obama need to do to ensure that his presidency results in transformational change?
HZ: Withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan as fast as ships and planes can carry them home, declare that the United States will not engage in aggressive wars, renounce the Bush doctrine of preventive war and the Carter doctrine, which threatens force to control Mideast oil, and start dismantling our military bases overseas. He should announce that we are henceforth a peace-loving nation, no longer a target for terrorists and no longer engaging in terrorism ourselves. He should reduce the military establishment and the military budget down to a bare minimum and create a jobs program for young people instead of recruiting them for military service.
The Indy: How should Obama fundamentally address the economic crisis?
HZ: We have a historic and successful precedent. The government in the early days of the New Deal put millions of people to work rebuilding the nation’s infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of young people, instead of joining the army to escape poverty, joined the Civil Conservation Corps, which built bridges and highways, cleaned up harbors and rivers. Thousands of artists, musicians and writers were employed by the WPA’s arts programs to paint murals, produce plays, write symphonies. The New Deal (defying the cries of “socialism”) established Social Security, which, along with the GI Bill, became a model for what government could do to help its people.
This is a golden opportunity for Obama to distance himself cleanly from the fossilized Democratic Party leaders, giving life to his slogan of change. And if he doesn’t act, it will be up to the people, as it always has been, to raise a shout that will be heard around the world — and compel the politicians to listen.
10 Responses to ““ELECTION DAY WILL NOT BE ENOUGH” An Interview with Howard Zinn”
November 14th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
HZ: Withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan as fast as ships and planes can carry them home, declare that the United States will not engage in aggressive wars, renounce the Bush doctrine of preventive war and the Carter doctrine, which threatens force to control Mideast oil, and start dismantling our military bases overseas. He should announce that we are henceforth a peace-loving nation, no longer a target for terrorists and no longer engaging in terrorism ourselves. He should reduce the military establishment and the military budget down to a bare minimum and create a jobs program for young people instead of recruiting them for military service.
My question is how much of this is realistic with this president or any president? Isn’t the Military Industrial Complex, the wars we wage, the bases we hold, the wars started by other countries that we perpetuate with weapons sales the only thing that insures our position as world power? If we divest from that practice wouldn’t some other imperialist government take over where we left off and perhaps insure their position by destroying the U.S.? Is your suggestion merely asking for the most extreme of change in hopes to getting at least a little bit?
I agree though with everything you’re saying though. I do think that historically change happens because the people want it to happen.
November 18th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Here’s a rundown on Obama for ya… Obama in 1981-3 at Columbia University ran into a little known fella named Zbigniew Brzezinski… Brezezinski along with David Rockefeller in 1973 created the Trilateral Commission (derived from the Bilderberg Group, Club of Rome, etc) to form new corporations between Japan, North America and Europe regarding PRIVATE interests, they are also oligarchs, meaning they believe in a pyramid structure of power concentrated at the top and a fluoridated, corn syrup drinking, mercury vaccinated mass working class at the bottom. You may look no further then your one dollar bill to see a visual illustration with the words ‘New World Order’ below in Latin. The Trilateral Commission and its members including Rockefeller himself remain the only indicted persons for 9/11 to this day by a citizen’s grand jury from California on April 14, 2007 (to this date there is no indictment for Bin Laden or any Al CIAda over 9/11, that’s 8 years, 2 wars and counting…) Now to the man of the hour… here is a list of Brzezinski’s agenda for the country over just the next just six months (notice I need not mention that Obama guy). We are going to have an international incident, within the first month (admitted by both Biden and Collin Powell this past week). These incidents will escalate the wars in Afghanistan which is a front for a more important war with Pakistan, both against the financial interests of the Shanghai Cooperation (Wall Street’s opposite or main rival) or in other words instigating further conflict with Russia and China. Before even being elected Obama openly stated he was for the bail out bill that was forced through Congress under martial law (yes, here in America, today as we speak) despite being opposed by over 90 percent of the American people. Already three army brigades are ordered to patrol here in the US for ‘domestic unrest’ which is not only illegal but about 232 years ago we fought a little known war with Britain called the Revolutionary War largely around the principle that military foreign or domestic would never walk the streets of this nation again. Consider that, and now consider today if you join the US military or even just the National Guard, you will be asked if you would shoot Americans, including your own friends and family. Brezezinski will also impose carbon taxes on the middle class, carbon is one of the basic elements of life, for example it is what trees take in the produce oxygen, and by the way earth’s average temperature has actually cooled over the past 10 years. Even if that weren’t the case, the Sun is getting hotter, the hottest in 60 years, and ice caps are melting on Mars for example. If you are still not gonna jump the global warming scam, at least understand you are the one who will be paying the bill, not any corporations or governments that would actually be responsible for such a thing. He’s also stated he’s gonna bankrupt the coal industry, putting at least 80,000 out of work. Your fair and balanced media (the SF Chronicle) has since ‘lost’ that interview, transcripts are on the net of course. And of course he’s got a ‘carbon friendly’ back up plan to ease the crisis. Obama has called for a one million strong youth brigade to spy on you, if you dare, I don’t know, say… talk about anything you are reading now for instance. He wants a three million strong brigade to report on any carbon abuses… so try not to you know, breathe too much or any blasphemy like that. “We gotta have a civilian security force, just as strong and just as funded,” Obama was allowed to say that one all by himself. Well I’m tired but just in case you figure maybe ‘he’s gonna do the right thing once he’s in power’ you should know people only make it to the presidency if they can be easily disposed on a moments notice. Well where should I begin well to start he’s not a US citizen, he was born in Kenya. Or they could just shoot him and say an angry white guy did it, who knows. Point is you all live in a left/right bullshit matrix, you are following a megalomaniac into total fascism, there is a chapter in Meinkamf (Hitler’s book) where he talks about energizing the youth, to create a grassroots people’s movement and the wars would continue under new humanitarian causes. Obama is also a gun grabber, so was Hitler and Mussolini. The Romans, when they conquered a territory and a tyrant was discredited over some years, would always bring in the ‘savior’ to change the rhetoric, ‘eliminate’ a third or half the population, and allow the tyranny to continue. So, I left the country already, have fun, and please, for yourselves, for our families and well… one more fun fact… they want 8 in 10 of you dead in 20 years. Please, all my friends and all decent people in a country I still care very much about, wake the fuck up and good luck!
November 18th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Slow wrote: “There is no hope in a president or government officials. ” and I say: “Right on my brother/sister!”
November 19th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Zinn that’s crazy talk!
It annoys me to no end when clearly intelligent and historically minded people like Zinn don’t follow their own logic!
In the beginning of the interview he was asked “how goes change happen?” Zinn basically answers that change happens because the people will it to- by popular movements organized by the people
Then near the end, he’s asked about “how the Obama presidency….results in transformational change?” There should be no discussion here according to his former logic- change can only occur via popular movements not corporate figurehead presidents. He should of answered “there can be no real change by the election of a president…..well at least according to an extensive history” then he could of referred back to his examples at the beginning of the interview and encouraged people to get out to the streets and organize in their communities if they want change so much….
Does he think that History is going to make an exception for the Obama presidency?
As they say, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it…
November 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Thanks for the wonderful interview with Zinn. My only request is: more. I like that “fossilized Democratic Party” characterization and that politicians (e.g. Congress) “don’t like change”. I had said during the campaign that Obama’s candidacy saved the Democratic Party.
I like what Cornel West said this morning on DemocracyNow, www.democracynow: (paraphrasing), Obama needs to start bringing in the NEW he was promising. Dr. West also said that perhaps President-Elect was in fear of the NEW he was promising during the campaign. Like Dr. West, many of us who supported Obama, (I did start as a Kucinich supporter), will be pushing him, and pushing and pushing to the Left. I never had any illusions about Obama’s political positions, as he has clearly been centrist. The challenge is to organize and of course, ignore the pundits in the “main stream” media….which we ( mostly )do.
One observation: I have noticed that Republicans do the same things over and over again:whether in various political campaigns or administrations. Most of us who are not Republicans, need to be reminded of history, which Howard Zinn does. My favorite book is Zinn’s “You Can’t Be Neutral on a Moving Train”, 2003 edition from Beacon Press:Boston. It’s a memoir, more like an autobio and is a kind of “handbook” for social change/activism.
November 30th, 2008 at 12:48 am
I have to admit it is hard to be optimistic sometimes but look at the change in the talk that we have. Sure Obama is for building up in Afghanistan and probably engaging Pakistan when there is “actionable intelligence” and he voted for the fisa bill letting the phone companies off the hook for domestic spying but he is also committed to getting us out of Iraq (chevron has an office there now) and he plans to spend $15 billion on green technology per year and create 5 million new jobs in 2 years. That is ambitious. Would bush or mccain ever talk about creating new jobs through direct investment in public works even if they support automotive-gas infrastructure of roads and bridges? I guess they need him too. Zinn was right when he said it is up to us and I do think this is the best time to push for change because maybe Obama might listen. That’s all we get.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Slow and Kenny: I agreee w/ you both. KingFish: way to break it down, my man! Shelby: Ditto.
I won’t rip HZ too bad, but he’s got the military angle a bit wrong. The pullout of Iraq and Afghanistan has to be slow, methodic, and calculated. We definitely should have set dates, etc. etc., but LET’s NOT ADVERTISE IT! It’s not the media’s ‘responsiblity’ to cast it to the world. (Can you lives at risk? Hello?) Whether we like it or not, the military is a necessary entity. I do not think that the military should be drawn down at all. What we DRASTICALLY need to do is change the ways in which we fight wars, as well as the overall functionality of the military with the main goals of saving countless of lives- and dollars to boot.
(I’m in the military and serve overseas. I love the military and love being exposed to other cultures. However, I know on the big scheme of things, we really don’t need to be here. With today’s technology, we could definitely ‘fight wars’ from home. i.e.- the B-2. Military officials and the far right will never tell you that. But the Dems don’t have it right, either.)
With that being said, our nation’s biggest financial problems stem from financial aid we send abroad through various means (and not wasted on the military as a lot of people claim, albeit, we could certainly cut back for sure.)
For heaven’s sake! We have people starving on the street and we’re pumping millions /billions overseas!??!?! The easiest way to gain the world’s respect/attention is to cut 95 - 98% foreign aid tomorrow.
Switching gears: I’m glad to see through Obama’s President-elect status that millions of American’s are growing tired of the status quo- maybe this is a sign of a growing grassroot’s movement that HZ was referring to- but I don’t like the way the media is making it out like he’s got some major hill to climb as if they’re already letting him off the hook in case he sucks as President. If anything, he has a majority in Congress on his side, so he’s actually lined up to get something accomplished right off the bat instead of the reverse. Honestly, though, he doesn’t have my vote of confidence (which is why I didn’t vote for him.) Seriously folks, voting Repub/Dem is simply like watching tennis—back and forth, back and forth…if you truly want change, vote third party…we get 12 finalists for American Idol, and only two for President!?!!? America: There are other options…voting gets more accomplished and is more powerful than any weapon I’ve used….Sigh…I digress…
On a lighter note: No matter whose in office; support your President, support your troops both at home and abroad, love your nation as you would your brother, love your political enemies and allies just the same…keep on keepin’ on, America! In Christ, In America–K.T.
December 5th, 2008 at 8:03 am
“Like Dr. West, many of us who supported Obama, (I did start as a Kucinich supporter), will be pushing him, and pushing and pushing to the Left.”
Professional politicians like Obama only change their positions when faced with the threat of losing votes from particular interest groups. They don’t respond to your demands if they can take your vote for granted. That’s why even after the anti-war vote propelled Obama ahead of Clinton, he had the audacity to choose a VP and cabinet whose pro-war positions could be classified as “Bush light” to “uber-hawkish”: Biden, Emanuel, Clinton, Jones, Gates, Napolitano, et al. The anti-war segment of Obama’s base, although sizable, failed to attach any conditions to their support. In short, by going to Obama rather than making him come to you, you forfeited any possibility of “pushing” him.
I am thinking of attending the inauguration - as a protestor - to remind a few fellow citizens that there is one party that has categorically opposed Republicratic wars of aggression in the Middle East, namely the Green Party.
December 5th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Green Ferret-
We may not agree politically across the board, but we do agree on a few things: 1) Obama is NOT the man, 2) one needs to vote 3rd party if you want REAL change, 3) voting Republicrat, er, Dem-Pub, is like being on a hamster wheel–it’s the road to no where or jon the road that leads you to where you were just before , etc…. I wish I could be in the states to see you protest, but I’d have to sit on the grass and watch….I still don’t think that whatever the cause–protests don’t do a great deal in terms of getting your pt. across…I just think w/ protests that the probable negative outcomes vastly outweigh the positive…but anyways, Green…keep on, keepin’ on! You, too, America! Keep on, keepin’ on! In Christ, In America! –KT–
November 14th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Really? You actually think any of those things will be accomplish by this corporate president. Distance from the democratic party? Just look at his advisers. Future cabinet members. Hope based on lies is not hope or anything close to it. Hope based on pleasing words doesn’t mean anything. Hope is action. I mean if anybody actually think Obama will decrease the military spending, or bring the troops home is just as delusional as those who voted for him. He is another puppet head of the imperialistic ideology of the American empire. The only thing that will really bring change is if those millions of people who actually voted for him and others as well protest and cause massive civil disturbance to bring him and others fully conscious that we will not sit idle and let you do things that hurt us and hurt people around the world. There is no hope in a president or government officials. Hope only lies in the action of mass amount of people that will not remain silent but continuously put pressure until the goal is reached with no compromise. We will then see change. Freedom or death.